Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | A Question for R+L=J Supporters

Sir you are so right that Jon is not baby in the tower.  If you think about the show version it makes no sense because Rheagar already had a son. He cause the war to produce an other son because he think the one with Lyanna is the Promised Son?.  Why not the one with Elia Martell.

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I'm a R+L=J Supporter, but I do like your videos on N+A=J as all of us know it will not end the debate on which Theory is right until it is written in black and white, there have been Targaryen's in history that have taken there mother's looks, eg. Baelor Breakspear & Rhaeneys Targaryen, Daughter of Rhaegar, looked like there Martell mother, and in A Game of Thrones Arya 2 (chapter 22) Ned says that Ayra looks like Lyanna and Jon and Ayra are the only children of Ned that are said to look like a Stark. As for Jon finding out the information, Jon would be happy to know who his mother is, but I think he would use his Bastard status even if he was True Born, also the blue winter rose growing form a chink in the wall from Daenerys house of the undying vision doesn't match up with N+A=J, unless you are able to explain the blue rose with Ned and Ashara and what it means.

There are two answers to your question depending on whether we're talking about the show or the books:

In the show: Dragonriding, old documents from the Citadel, tree visions, whatever whatever – people in Westeros will believe because D&D want Jon to rule, because hidden heir becoming the king is just the sort of thing you do in a fantasy story and mainstream audiences love it.

In the books: Irrelevant, because it won't ever become public knowledge, and might be something only us readers ever figure out. It'll be a subversion of the old trope. The real king lives his life as a random bastard (but may well end up being the truest Protector the realm has ever had) while a total rando is crowned in his place, and the people of Westeros will never know the truth.

I've been watching your videos and I've been reading the books I'm currently on the third one and I see that there's no evidence for L+R =J . The evidence in the first book alone disproves this it is so refreshing to know I'm not the only one that doesn't believe in this ridiculous Theory. I mean for one Jon doesn't even have Targaryen features Targaryen's are known for having silver hair yet he doesn't have silver hair in the books or in the TV show. Jon Snow is a Stark and I find it very peculiar how Catalan in the first book of Game of Thrones feels so threatened by John that she needs to send him to the wall why would she do that if Jon wasn't Ned son? He looks like Ned more than his other children that's a red flag for L+R=J. N+A = J has far more evidence to back it up there's many passages throughout the books that prove that that Jon is Ned Stark's first born son. I don't care that HBO says they're not George RR Martin only his words counts not theirs.

I watched the TV series first but as of season 7 I'm a book purist considering the fact that the changes they've made since season 5 are unforgivable to me. I feel like this ridiculous Theory and making it Canon to the HBO's series takes away from Jon's character. I know that George RR Martin will not do that in Winds of Winter and a dream of spring he'll do something much better Winds of Winter can't come out fast enough so we can finally put this ridiculous Theory to rest.

I began to suspect they've merged Jon with Griff the moment they named him Aegon on the show. I understand though, that it would be very difficult to adapt Aegon this late.
At least it keeps my hope up that things will play out a bit differently in books.

I am only going to say, what Jon Arryn was saying before he died " The seed is strong!", which is clear for all children throughout the books that they take most of their fathers features. Why do John don't have white hair or purple eyes or both and looks so much like Ned. Also it is clear that they could't put so much characters in GoT and explain the whole plot, because that would've prolonged the show too much and would not be that interesting for the masses. In my opinion, what the show runners did is to combine the characters of John and Young Griff in order to get the needed character who will fit for the ending of the show. Just think about it, they would need 20+ sessions to do the show with the original plots and all the details surrounding them. I have seen most of The Order of the Green Hand videos, the facts that they have presented are pretty convincing and have to agree with both of them.

If we're just going by looks then Jon can't Ashara Daynes child because he doesn't have her violet eyes or even her hair color. Not to mention Young Griffs story is far more crazy he's pretending to be son of someone else but his really the son of Rhaegar who thought the mountain killed but was switched out with some random fle bottom baby who somehow had enough Targeryan looks to fool his own mother and the mountain BUT wait there's more he's only pretending to be his own dead brother when he's actually the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark. I'm going to go with the far more believable theory that him and Varys are actually Blackfyre.

The story about George Martin asking Dan and Dave who Jon's mother is and because they gave the right answer he gave consent for them to start the show…

I've been watching your videos and have found your reasoning and evidence about Jon's parentage to be convincing. If you are correct, then George Martin was ingenuous with his question to Dan and Dave.

If they had answered Ashara Dayne, the show could have ruined the future books. Because they gave the wrong answer, he knew that the show would diverge from the books in a major way, therefore not affecting demand for Winds of Winter.

what about the confirmation of jons parenthood via the HBO released image?

Honestly I don't buy R+L, it seems too cheesy for me. I been leaning towards N+A, but that's just me wanting Jon to Ned's son. Also I think the Daynes are a little mysterious being Valaiyran looking First Men who practices Andal customs in a region where rhoynar is majority

Jon wouldn't care about being a king. I think he would only care about not being a bastard.

The only person that needs to be convinced of Jon's heritage for it to make any impact in the story is Dany. (And, well, Jon, but you know.)

You all have this cute idea in your head that the end of ASOIAF will have someone sitting on the Iron Throne, but I think that's pretty far from what's going to happen.

I pose THIS question in return: What's the point, from a story telling stand point, of keeping Jon's mother a mystery?

I guess the real question is How will The Order of the Green Hand react when GRRM explains this R+L=J shit in the books? LOL!

Just to throw this out there my gramps is making me read a few books from the Bible.
So in St. Mathew's page he goes through 14 generations to Christ. One of the ancestors name is Azor is son of Eliakim… hmmm. Elia of Dorne= Azor Ahai.
I have no firm foundation here and just thought is was interesting. What does everyone else think?

Well if people started spreading this rumour, and then Jon rode a dragon…. :O
But seriously, who knows? It might just mean that he's AA/TPTWP (or one and not the other because who really knows with these prophecies) and that he's super important. What would be more interesting is how Jon reacted to the news himself. Would he be happy? Sad? Suffer an identity crisis? Would he think he should have the iron throne? Would he not really care? Would he want to meet the other Targs? Would he suddenly fall in love with his half-sister Arya? (probably not that last one! But hey, maybe?)

What would him being the secret true born son of Ashara and Ned do? Only person who can confirm this would be Ashara, who would be his mum, and most have presumed dead for years, so no better than Bran. I guess he'd get Dawn? And be a hero? (So… exactly the same thing as if he were a Targ?) And why didn't he just tell Jon, oh your mum is Ashara Dayne, and put him out of his misery?

I think that episode 9 of season 6 makes it abundantly clear with the cutaway to John's face where he stares at the camera for 10 seconds with dramatic music. He is the chosen one. The resurrected "prince that was promised". The show has never been so clear with their thematic queues. I don't think he will boast about his parents but I think it will play a role in the remaining story.

Even if Jon was a Targ he would be a lacklustre one like Dany's brother because he lacks her imunity to fire. Which I would assume would mean he couldn't fly on a dragon.

Aegon would totally be down with it he like bam third head come on dany he can be some member of the court. Stanis is not long for this world and neither is the mad queen so how they feel is not really important.

who said that how he will find out i think it will be told by howland reed you know the only person still a live form that battle.

I personally believe the R + L = J theory could be true because of GRRM original plan for the books… in 2015 Harper Collins, the publisher of the ASOIAF books twitted the original idea for the books that GRRM sent him… the last paragraph has been blacked out… BUT what really make me believe the R+L=J theory is possible is this part of the letter:

"… until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book."

Here is the link of the website Watchers on the Wall with the original plan: http://watchersonthewall.com/george-r-r-martins-original-plan-game-thrones/

Could he have changed his mind? Yes. Much of his original plan was changed so his first idea for Jon's parentage could as well… As it could still be the same as in his original plan…I think the theory has some weight, and if this is really his original plan it can't be completelly discredited…

The true will only be revealed at the end I think… If it is R+L=J or N+A=J I don't really know but eitherway, to me, it will be satisfying… in either case… Jon's origins is very tragic…

Im wondering, if you don't think R+L=J, how do explain Dany's undying dream about the blue flowers on the wall of ice? Btw sorry if this has been asked before.

I have read several theories. But the one that I think that fit best is that you have to remember who the men were in front of the tower of joy. They were basically the last 3 men left on the kings guard. And what was one of the last orders the king gave. The king had ordered for the head of Robert and Ned. So when you see the fever dream, you have to realize they are there and they do their honor and it doesn't matter if the king is dead or that the prince is dead. One of the last orders they received is for the head of Robert and Ned. When you understand that is there is a fight in the first place it debunks the theory that Ned is Jon's father. As far as moving the stone castle, that is what Reed's family is known to do. Listen to Meera tell Bran about how and what the gifts are of her father. And I want to say that Ashara Dayne was in love with Howland Reed. She says somewhere she was never comfortable at court so it only makes sense to me. She faked her death for the secret and to also be with the man she loved Howland Reed. I just feel like it is this way rather than the other. But I am still re-reading everything.

I think the answer is that the story is moving in a direction where claims based on ancestry are not important like they once were, because the entire 7 Kingdoms system is disintegrating in the post-Robert world.

Here's a critical question for your theory: WHEN could Ned and Ashara have been together to conceive Jon? Jon and Robb are about the same age, and Robb was apparently conceived about the time of the Battle of the Bells. Not exactly a good time for a known Targaryen loyalist to be meeting with a leader in the rebellion now, is it? Name a time around the Battle of the Bells that Ned and Ashara could safely meet, and a circumstance that fits Ned's character, otherwise your theory simply collapses.

Besides which, your theory is quite simply unnecessarily complicated. Why the whole switcheroo when R+L=J is far simpler and far more believable. N+A=Daenerys is far more believable than this convolution.

R+L is about Ned and his motivations in AGOT, not the child. Any reveal will be like "who killed Jon Arryn" or "who sent the catspaw to kill Bran" – possibly interesting for the hearers, but they can't do anything with it – ie it is something for the readers, rather than a dramatic game-changing event.

The premise of this video seems to be that if R+L=J is true that there would be problems with this rooted in J's inability to prove it to the world, but doesn't that fit sort of neatly in to the theme of ASOIAF? Taking fantasy tropes and adding a realism (magic, dragons and etc aside…) twist to them? The story of one perfect prince who while go through trials and tribulations discovering his true heritage and rising to become king seems too neat for GRRM. I think it would work to have the one true king according to all the laws of Westeros be unable to prove it. Maybe you have a different opinion about the implications of J's inability to prove his heritage to the world and why that is evidence to debunk the theory (aside from your previous reasons for why you reject it), but I don't see a problem inherently in this observation.

First, I've just found your videos and I've been enjoying binging on them. Second, your argument against R+L=J relies heavily on there being no physical evidence present on Planetos to support it. Personally, I don't really subscribe to the theory, but I find it unlikely if it is true that Ned, Howland, Lyanna, or Rhaegar wouldn't have left some evidence behind. If Jon is, in fact, Rhaegar's son but there is no evidence to support it why would Lyanna extract that dying promise from Ned? If, as you say, nobody would believe the claim anyway why bother with it? This, of course, requires supposing that Jon is, in fact, Rhaegar's son.
Also, I feel different about Stannis than you do. I never thought that he was in it to be King. I always read his character as the dutiful younger brother who is only fighting for the throne because he is lawfully next in line for succession. I always thought that if a better claimant came along he might actually support them.

Anyone who believes R+L does not equal J is probably a big Preston Jacobs fanboy/conspiracy nut.

There will be one, and only one piece of conclusive evidence for Targaryen blood: the dragons. The ones who ride Rhaegal and Viserion are the true Targaryens. If Jon rides a dragon, that will be proof enough for everyone, for only a Targaryen can ride a dragon. If the Pisswater Prince can, then I am going to assume his story is actually true. Besides, why make things more complicated than they need to be? If N+A=J, then why not leave him in Dorne where bastards are treated as equals? If R+L=J, then it makes perfect sense for Ned to take Jon, for who else can be trusted to keep him safe? Occam's Razor applies here too: the simpler answer is most likely the correct one