Part 4 of N+A=J: Similarities between Ned and Jon and summary.

Theories and analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire using text evidence and quotes from George RR Martin.

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48 COMMENTS

  6. After watching all the series so far, there is a complete confusion to me with all that you have posted here. As I assumed that it was Ned Stark that was only with Catlyn. Lyanna was the true wife of Raegar and bore Jon Snow, who is Aegon Tygarian. and the neice of Daneyarias?

  7. I'm not sure Jon's looks and personality can be used as evidence. Ned remarks that Arya looks and acts like Lyanna, but she's his daughter. If Ned can produce a child that looks and acts like Lyanna, can't Lyanna produce a child that looks and acts like Ned?

  9. My main problem with N+A=J is the secrecy behind Jon's parentage. If Jon is Ashara's son via Ned why keep it a secret? She's supposedly dead and as long as Ned and Ashara didn't get married it doesn't really matter. Basically there's no reason to keep Jon's parentage a secret if Jon is Ned and Ashara's bastard son. That isn't even including the fact that it's a huge stretch for Robert to have never found out who Ned was courting to at least give Ashara as potential mother for Jon. You meant to tell me that Robert wouldn't have figured out his best friend was seeing a girl in secret for 13-15 months and tried to figure out who it was? He wouldn't have enquired at all or even had someone follow him to figure it out? I know it'd be eating at me figuring out what my best friend would be doing during that time away. Hell you lead me to believe that Ned wouldn't have gone to Robert for any advice about woman at all during that time?

    That isn't to say that I don't believe that Ashara and Ned weren't in love however. Because I do believe that. It makes for a tragic love story for Ned during Robert's Rebellion, marrying Catelyn for duty and losing the woman he loves in the process and it does seem to be truly what happened.

    R+L=J on the other hand fulfills the requirement of needing to keep Jon's parentage a secret. After all you'd need to keep Jon's parentage a secret while Robert "killing Targaryen babies in their cribs is completely justified" Baratheon is king and there is so much foreshadowing in the books that Jon is Targaryen through Lyanna and Rheagar. Whether through Dany's vision during the house of the undying with her at the wall and it having a winter flower filling the air with sweetness. Who at the wall could be Lyanna's son symbolizing the winter flower? Jon of course. Or how she hears a wolf howling and gets sad during ADWD the literal chapter after Jon gets stabbed.

    However I can see N+A=J being true if Ned did marry Ashara because then they would need to keep Jon's parentage a secret in order to keep the Tully alliance and make a Tully child his firstborn and heir to Winterfell. Maybe Ned was the one that got an annulment so he could marry Catelyn before finding out Ashara was pregnant? That coupled with Jon potentially being the wielder of the sword of the morning makes a compelling case for needing to keep Jon's parentage a secret. It also does make the kids nickname being "Ned" make sense. It would also mean, as you pointed out, that Jon could actually meet Ashara if Septa Lemore is actually Ashara. Although I do lean towards Septa Lemore being Illyrio's wife Serra who is from Blackfyre or Brightflame decent over Ashara.

  10. Jon could simply resemble his uncle, as far as the TV show goes. I have a sibling, who with another cousin, looks so much like my mother's baby sister, they could have both been the baby sister's kids. Also, speaking as a female, those two actors to my eye look NOTHING ALIKE, I know you only use the TV actors images so your audience knows who your referring to but one has a 'Robert Redford' I'm gonna be FINE for a LONG TIME look (Kit) while the other is more HARRISON FORD or Sean Penn good looking (Sean) (gonna age visably) and it's hard to get past that (for me). I agree with "How could Ned not have thought about Rhaeyn in all this time" but perhaps it's because he knew his sister wasn't actually raped???? (excuse my spelling)

  12. I don't get why people care so much about his parentage. At the end of the day it makes no difference who his parents are. He is still a bastard if he is Asharas. and if he is Rhaegars he is also still a bastard. I don't believe George would write an annulment in for rhaegar. it makes no sense at all. he's had a long standing marriage fully consimated with children. The faith almost never annulls marriages. even marriages that weren't consimated have been denied for kings.

  16. oh god… i am so convinced… starfall… winterfell… oh god…
    edit: does it all fit thematically though? we know that grrm has a thing for making characters realize what they wanted (to be/to own) is not what they are/need to be at all. take daenerys- it is almost certain that she won't be able to sit on the throne but will have to save the world. all sansa wanted was to be a lady, and she has had her dreams shattered many times. jaime was a knight, a good one, and he lost his hand. what i am saying is, jon turning out to be a targaryen would thematically fit into this. all jon wanted was to be a true stark, and he is not. he is a targaryen. i don't know if you have talked about this yet, for i have only watched n+a=j videos so far. sorry if you have and i am simply making noise here. very intriguing videos, very good arguments!

  20. You guys are pimps. Truly. I am constantly reading the books and it is certainly true that time and time again people remark on Jon's resemblance to Ned Stark. I mean, grrm kind of makes it a point to make sure the reader knows that Jon has Neds face. Over and over. But like some others, I'm not 100% convinced that he couldn't have got the Stark face from Lyanna's Stark genes. The more I listen to you guys, the more I believe. I've read the story so many times, yet you guys definitely have a deeper well of knowledge than I do about many things. It's so frustrating because grrm deliberately attempts to make multiple possibilities seem perfectly plausible. Even making one possibility seem a little stronger, deliberately pointing the reader that way, while the truth may be what appears less likely. I just want the books dammit. Why did they have to do this epic show before the books were finished?

  21. You guys convinced me. I was on the R+L=J like it was gospel ever since the game theory video. But this fits GRRM way better. Once the Tower of Joy scene was written out, R+L=J was just too obvious. That and GRRM doesn't play by traditional genetics rules. GOT characters tend to resemble their fathers over their mothers (the SEED is strong). Even when the targareons outbred, they tended to have targareon white hair at least 1/2 the time, even with dark haired partners (see Bloodraven, Sheira Seastar, Aerys I, Dareon I, Jaehaerys II, Aegon II, etc)

  24. You've made a huge research that impressed me and made me think. In fact, I'm beggining to believe you are right, and i've always supported R+L=J! I think you connected the dots very well. Just one thing annoys me: why Eddard never call Jon my son, but my blood instead? And why while waiting for his death at the dungeon thinks about his children and specifically mentions Robb, Sansa, Bran, Arya and Rickon, but no Jon?

    And the thing about Winterfell being the place of the final battle against the Night King, gave me chills! In a good way, obviously.

    And the Daynes are descendants of the First Men so it makes sense that Dawn is actually Lightbringer, meant for Jon to beat the Darkness… That'd be awesome…

  28. – Jon looks like his sister who looks like Lyanna.
    – Jon acts like a Stark… so did Lyanna
    – Jon being the son of the family of fire and the family of ice makes him equally imporant character and likely the Prince that was promised.
    – Direwolf is house stark, so is lyanna. The wolves being all siblings is a stretch, they were all pureblood siblings and jon wouldn't be pureblood no matter which theory is correct. He was raised with them and he is half Stark (no matter the theory).
    – Jon is a Warg… cause he's a Stark regardless of which theory.
    – John has Wolf dreams… cause he's a Stark.
    – John has dreams of the stark crypts…Cause he's a Stark. These things don't have to come from Eddard alone, he and his sister were both Stark.
    – Jon doesn't have Dragon Dreams, sure but Dany doesnt warg into Drogon either. This is irrellevant. Lyanna is a stark.
    – Jon might have some features of Rhaegar. but obvi the stark gene is strong. ("the seed is strong").
    – His identity is… gdi. That's how he grew up! Identities are created in utero! Genes don't determine that. Harry Potter wasn't born with "The Boy Who Lived" identity! gdi, these points anger me. They reach.
    – Jon has only known his life, him wanting to be a pureblood Stark has nothing to do with whether Lyanna or Ned is his Stark parent.
    – If Jon is not a stark, the line of Starks could continue w/ the females if it was needed like the Mormonts and would likely be accepted and john could also pass on the stark name and genes. Also Jon IS an effing stark! his mother was a Stark! If someone married Lyanna Mormant, she would retain her house title and her consort would either take her name or not but she would remain. Same happens in Dorne.
    –

  31. I think your theory is very likely. I also find an interesting pattern that many have overlooked. The Targaryen dynasty began with Aegon, Visenya, Rhaenys and three dragons. Now we have Danaerys, Cersi(with Jaime may be the mad Kings bastards), Aegon "The Young Griff" and three dragons. There are patterns that read like schematics all over these novels.

  32. Excellent video ! your run down at the end brought to mind the Starks other motto " there must always be a stark in Winterfell " why??
    Sansa and Arya will marry out of family , ( show wise Sansa is already Lady Lannister, or lady Bolton ) bran doesn't want to be Lord of Winterfell and not to be indelicate but if he did marry could he have children? My point being if Jon is not a Stark the Stark line will end with bran ,
    No more Starks in winterfell and what will that mean ?

  33. GRRM is a master story teller and puts things in front of you that you ether skip thinking you've understood it, or you read another way from maybe your favourite character's perspective , we are lead to believe that Rickon's naming of his Direwolf shaggy dog is meant to be a 3 year olds idea of a cool name , it's really rickon's and his direwolfs whole story line , it's just another shaggy dog tale that go's no where , I'm watching your videos in order and I'm liking it , for me the whole tower of joy story does not make sense , were to believe Rheagar is hiding his bit on the side under his wife's family's nose? The " war " timeline has always confused me , even Dany's birth , she seems to be conceived on the very night kings landing fell because she's born 9 months later , I highly doubt Aerys was up for some slap and tickle at that time

  34. I agree with your assessment of Jon being Ned and Ashara's son, but why do you think he had to keep it a secret all these years? What's the harm in telling him the truth? That's the only part I'm confused about.

  35. Well, wouldn't G.R.R.M making so many references of their resemblance, to make readers believe that he is indeed his bastard son. Before revealing his true parents to great surprise?
    And after all, Jon would have the same 2 grandparents (of 4 ofc) if her mother was Lyanna as if his father is Ned.

    But instead there's both a secret Targaryen AND a secret Stark and who else, due to Ned riding around all of Westeros swapping babies 😅

    Robb the Young Wolf
    Jaime the Kingslayer
    Jon the White Wolf
    Eddard the Baby Swapper

  36. If this is true, with the number of episodes left in the series I dont see them having enough time to explain Ashara and her relevance to the audience. Of course the books are something else all together…

  37. Ok, I can believe this is it happens in the books, but R+L=J is the only reasonable answer to who Jon's parents are. There just would be no time for the show to explain all of this seeing as we are very close to the end of the series.

  39. Well I'm going to keep sipping that koolaid, though I always enjoy theory videos from people who are obviously invested in the story and the world 🙂
    But to give my two cents, if N+A=J then GRRM either accidentally wrote a mystery, or wrote the worst mystery ever. Ashara is the first person who the reader is told is Jon's mother. For the reveal to be that it is Ashara is sort of just – okay, so Cat was right. There isn't much shock, because the idea has already been seeded in our heads. Yes, R+L=J has become super popular, and it's taken over the internet due to the series' popularity and the amount of time people have had to mull it over, so you can claim "but you wouldn't see it coming because you mistakenly fell for those hints." But that would be the most ridiculous choice an author ever made. Planting just a few hints to suggest a red herring, while out right stating the truth? That's not a mystery… that's either an accident, or a pretty obvious recipe to disappointing people who were expecting something exciting.
    Also: Is the fact that Arya Stark bears such a close resemblance to her Aunt Lyanna, is nicknamed Arya Horseface (when her Aunt had such a close affinity for horses), and a tomboy just like her aunt, a sign that Arya is actually the secret daughter of Lyanna :O????

  40. Jon being like Ned has to do with his upbringing more so than his genes, him looking like Ned makes sense, he is a Stark, are your theory based on whether or not Ned looks like his own father, or his grand father?? Lyanna carries almost the same genes as Eddard Stark, why would she not be able to give birth to a boy that looks like their father?

    Mostly the reason why I fight tooth and nail not to believe your version is because of Jon Snow as a character, him being "Azor Ahai" would just be too obvious, it doesn't feel right, it would feel absolutely out of place imo, it is going back to the whole "This story is just black and white then" Personally I hope, I dearly hope that Azor Ahai, might possibly be Sandor Clegane.

    Also the whole bottomline of your statements in the video, is completely and utterly incorrect, Jon would still be a Stark if he is of Lyanna Stark, he is Jon Snow after all, a northerner, not a Targaryen, and so what if he doesn't look Targaryen? Robb doesn't look Stark, only in the show he does. Does that mean Robb wasn't Ned's son in the books? Play the devil's advocate, it is fun also, I think it would be more interesting.

    That is personal opinion, I think it is great you guys showcase this theory in this detail, I like it, I watched it after all, I am just not buying it and I hope you are wrong.

  41. Fck it… and you! 🙂
    I've watched your case for over 3 hours now, and you spoiled the greatest deception of literature in the known history. A massive spoiler warning would be nice 🙂
    But never mind. I think many of the major plotlines are known by Dan&Dave, but i feel the show is not going to do it. The whole Dayne stuff is hidden from the show, and no one could've guessed it, like you did on the grounds of the canon. I can imagine two cases why they are not doing the book stuff though: first of all GRRM feeled the show will precede his work, and to stay authentic – forced by his proudness in his work -, he agreed to the R+L=J theory before the producers. My second theory is that D&D know the Dayne stuff already but they either find it to twisted for a TV-show(like Rickon plotline), or just simply liked the popular theory of Jons parentage better. (We know how arrogant those are)

  43. Yet another perk of being a Tywin Lannister stan 😛 Discovering this channel (Through the Tywin-Machiavelli videos), how have I not done it before is beyond me! I just love your attention to all the details it's truly astounding! Seriously this is my new addiction!! I much prefer N+A=J to R+L=J because that one is too Disney-esque & not GRRM's style at all IMO.
    I haven't watched the show beyond S4 because I'm waiting for TWoW but I did see the Lyanna clip in 6×10 & I wanna ask has there been any actual/worded confirmation that Jon is that baby? I mean the whole cutting from the baby's face to Jon's could be a misleading trick…

  44. I can't believe I only found this channel now. I have been trying to prove N+A=J but I don't have the eye for detail certain people (like you) have, and now I find out someone has already done it for me, in a marvelous and brilliant way at that. Thank you so much for this. One question though, how do you think Jon will discover his true parentage? That's one of the problems I find with this theory, it's that I can't see a way that Jon will get to know the truth. But in the R+L=J theory, the truth could lie in the crypts. Please answer this, so that if I die tomorrow, I shall die in peace! Lol

  45. your "sibling" observation adds nothing to your claim. Okay George said that Jon is having a common parent with Stark children! so what? Jon being Ned's bastard is what is literally written in the books. It is layer one. Calling him a sibling of Stark children is not revealing a secret!

  46. while I have long been an R+L=J supporter I am not ruling out that your theory could very well be true as well. I firmly believe the child Ashara had was Nedd's child even if that child wasn't Jon. The only thing I take issue with is Jon's mother is so important and the books and the show are ment to have the same end game (Confirmed by GRRM) but are taking different paths to get there… why would they (HBO and D&D) confirm R+L=J only for GRRM to have written it as Ashara being Jon's mother. both implications of who Jon's mother/parents are is game changing and goes along with the Azor Ahai prophecy in some way but your theory hinges a lot on the timeline which inspire of your evidence will be strongly debated by many in the Fandom. all this does not mean that I do not enjoy your take on the story. it is certainly a well thought out and well researched one and I enjoy the way you present the information. I am going to continue to listen to your take because the beauty of the ASOIAF community is all the wonderful and varied theories.

  48. I love this theory so much! I've only watched the show so far and have just barely begun to read the books. I was subscribed to the R+L=J theory mainly because that's what the show is trying to set up. But this is an excellent argument and makes so much more sense! The rich lore is what attracted me to this series to begin with and I'm excited to delve deeper into it with books. I really appreciate your painstaking dissection of the mythology! Your hard work really shows. Great channel.

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