Game of Thrones|Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne|Part 2

Not a bad theory but doesn't make sense why Ashara/Lemore would be with the true Targaryan Prince. She could have gone just about anywhere in westeros as a Septa. She could even have been assigned to help teach the young Stark ladies in the womanly arts. I think that Lemore has a different Dornish connection. I think Lemore is Tyene's mother. Once she fell preganant there wouldn't have been too many mother houses that would have welcomed a septa who forgot her vows. We know that the Dornish had a secret marriage pact for Arianne and Viserys. And of course our friendly local spider would have known about it as well. So a quiet note delivered by a little bird telling Doran and Oberyn of a prince with better claim than Viserys needing to be taught all a king should know and Oberyns paramour needing somewhere to be a septa without causing a scandal would lead Lemore to Illiryos manse and thence to the Shy Maid.

Is Jon older than Rob? Because if not it doesnt make sense

Is Jon older than Rob? Because if not it doesnt make sense

I'm sorry, but you're way off on that 'shadow' thing. There used to be an old radio show called 'The Shadow' that GRRM would absolutely be familiar with. At the beginning it always said, "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? THE SHADOW KNOWS." He was assuredly referring to that. People his age have been known to say that, especially somebody like him whom is so enamored with comics, sci fi, and pop culture in general.

I like the idea that Septa Lemore could be Ashara and that Ashara is still alive, as this fits in with my view that Aegon = Aegon and not Jon. If R + L actually = Aegon, perhaps Aegon is still alive and then perhaps it makes more sense to say R + L = A and that Jon is actually Ned’s son after all from his union with Ashara (N + A = J). Ashara’s child may not have been stillborn and she may not have taken her own life. Consider that the babies were switched (to protect Aegon). Rhaegar’s son Aegon entrusted to Ashara, while Ned’s son Jon is taken from Ashara by Ned and raised at Winterfell. Therefore, Jon could be Ned’s first born, the true ‘King in the North’ and Sword of the Morning, being half Stark half Dayne, and Aegon (yet to return in the show, if he ever does) the heir to the Iron Throne and the Prince that was Promised. This all makes even more sense if we take Arthur Dayne’s (who wished Ned ‘good fortune in the wars to come’) death at the Tower of Joy as a red herring and his sister’s (Ashara) suicide (body never recovered) as a cover up.

I understand your enthusiasm for creating theories, but its a known fact that GRRM asked the producers for the parentage of Jon Snow to see if he can allow them to make the show. And they said in the interview that they guessed it correct. As we already saw whose jon's parents are in the show(by the time this video came out) and as we know GRRM gave them rights to make it into a show in exchange of a right answer, i think its very safe to say he will not surprise us in the books and L+R=J is true. But i also think the identity of septa Lemore is very suspicious. Tho its hard to believe that she is Ashara, as Tyrion was born and was old enough to know about Ashara Dayne when she "died", so he would notice the eyes immediately. But maybe GRRM didnt give any hints on eyes because it would be too obvious then.

And for the reasoning why Ashara would try to hide Rhaegars and Elia's baby is, her brother was a very close friend of the prince so he could have sent little Aegon to his home to be taken care of in the orders of his friend, till the war is over. And since both Arthur and Rhaegar couldnt return from the war, Ashara might have taken responsibility of the prince with Jon Con. and raise him in secret to get revenge for the death of their loved ones.

Ashara wasn't nailed to the floor in Starfall – she and Ned weren't in the mood.

I have a theory that Ashara Dayne might be Nissa Nissa. So Aegon lands his army and seeks the support of the Dornish, which leads them to Atarfall, where perhaps Ashara reveals her true identity but surely takes Dawn with them. On their journey they meet with Jon Snow, why is up for debate, but Ashara recocnizes him (he looks like Ned after all) and she hands him Dawn. To turn it into Lightbringer Jon will stab it through the heart of Ashara, embueing her soul into the blade. This has an emotional touch as well; Jon never knew his mother, now she is with him for the rest of his life. Although Jon is not a Targaryen prince, he was heir to king Robb, making him a prince. This would mean that Jon still is Azor Ahai but Daenerys lives.

Did you touch on the fact that Tyrion's description of Lemore is "she looks past 40" but GRRM says that she would be in her 30's? Did I miss it?

You talked about how it would be too simple for r+l=j but isn't n+a=j what most of the asoiaf characters already think happened

OK, so, I like the theory, but I just can't get past a couple things: 1) Tyrion never mentions that Lemore has purple eyes, and that would be something he would definitely notice, and 2) Ashara is described as being beautiful, but Lemore is "handsome". The only other woman described in a similar way is Lyanna Stark. I think Lyanna is Lemore, not Ashara. And, on a side note, i think it's also possible for Jon Snow to be the son of Arthur Dayne and Lyanna, and the whole Rhaegar bit was to throw everyone off the real love story b/c the Nights of the Kingsgaurd are supposed to be chaste (and Rhaegar and Arthur were like brothers, so it would be a secret Rhaegar would keep for a brother!). And if Lyanna is still alive, then that would explain why Ned hasn't just come out an told Jon his mother is dead.

When Tyrion finds Varys talking to Shae in the In (A clash of kings, Tyrion I?) He thinks of her big black eyes.

I like your theory! Always thought strange that GRRM would show the cards like that. In the show all that targaryen Jon even the name seams to forced. So I'm very excited with your theory. Can't wait for the books.

This all makes so much more sense and for a more interesting story than the route HBO chose to take. It just makes me sad at all the wasted opportunity to bring this story to life fully.

G.R.R Martin made it a requirement for d&d or dumb and dumber as you call them that they had to guess johns parentage before they could even make the show. so obvi grr martin agrees with d&d that r+l=j. i believe something suspicious went on at the tourney at harrenhal, and the tower of joy, but does that mean because something may have happened at these places that ashara is jons mother, no. I suggest that you guys do more in depth research on these two events, because I believe ashara is somehoew connected and the summerhalll event which I believe acted as some sort of catalyst for this prince that was promised prophecy and why rheagar had spent most of his life so consumed with it. questions we should be asking… what happened at summerhall that led to rhegars whole life being obsessed with prophecy? who exactly dishonored ashara at harrenhal, and why is this important or mentioned repeatedly throughout the novels? according to selmy iit must have been a stark. I like to believe that it was ned, because to me this provides more depth for neds honor bound character but it is left deceptive on purpose that is for certain. according to the show we see howland reed kill arthur dayne, although in the books all ned says is if it wasnt for howland reed, he never says arthur was killed only that he was a better swordsman. So perhaps a conversation took place in the books instead of howlands sneak attack in the show. so what was really said at the tower of joy? we know there is something missing there! where is howland reed now? grr has kept him away because he will fill us in on everything that went down there. so where is ashara? i believe that she is alive because her death is so mysterious. which leads me to believe that ashara knows what went down at the tower of joy because ned goes to starfall and tells her everything. ashara is burdened with heavy secrets about the crown (rhaegar and jon), the death or complicaated entanglement of her brother and the kingsguard and now plus on top of that ned saying he could never be with her now, because of cat. So I dont believe ashara jumped, she fled. Fled from the weight of it all…plus she was loyal to the targaryens as a handmaid for elia so eventually someone would have come to ask her about the whereabouts of the tagrayans and now that she knows this stuff about jon she does not want to be in the line of fire…so she fled. about the still born perhaps these were just rumors and ashara hoped ned would come back to her because of this. either way ashara knows jons true parentage, which is not her and may be used to reveal it to him in the future. and plus she would proabably only speak fondly of ned at this point since hes dead and all that and jon may feel some sort of connection to her after all his real mother is dead and cat was never an inkling nice towards jon. so ashara would be the perfect person to give this news to jon, a maternal type figure for him- sort of. my tinfoil theory is that ashara did lie about the stillborn to get ned to feel sorry for her ned goes to starfall gets ashara actually pregnant and ashara with the weight of the world on her shoulders flees to dragonstone for fear od being labeled a traitor by robert and it is there that a baby swap occcured with rhaellas stillborn and asharas newborn dany. valyrian blood from dayne=dany and ashara and all the adults died. leaving only dany viserys and willem darry. it would fit into the time line of dany being younger than jon…this is a stretch though for many reasons so i prefer the above theory

[Tyrion] is to busy looking at her breasts xD
You are too good

I'm not sure who Lemore is yet. I've heard two other theories. One is that she is one of the daughters of Alys and Elys Arryn. Or that she is Wenda the White Fawn, the woman who ran with the Kingswood Brotherhood. The latter doesn't really make much sense. Her being the daughter of Elys and Alys, the one who ran off with a sellsword and maybe joined the Silent Sisters, all we have to go on is what Littlefinger said, does seem possible. Beyond being knowledgable about the Faith, which most highborn women would be, she does seem to have some skill treating the sick. When Tyrion fell into the water, she was fearless in treating him, even though it exposed her to getting the disease. She did seem like she had some experience treating this disease or exposure to it, which is understandable because it is common along the Rhoyne, but the whole Septa thing doesn't seem like a complete act.

An interesting theory, but I just don't buy that Tyrion wouldn't notice and mention the Septa had purple eyes. It is an unusual eye colour.

The fact that Tyrion thinks she is in her 40s supports the idea that she is in her 30s. I remember hearing Prestion Jackobs driving home the point that Tyrion has a tendency to missjudge people's age and believing they are older than they are.

Ashara stays in a tower legendarily built by Jon stark…. hmmm

How do you know the "looked to Stark" line wasn't about Brandon Stark, instead of Ned? Ned was really shy and Brandon was very Alpha, so maybe he banged her and had that bastard child, Jon, and Ashara asked Ned to take care of him.
Another thing, When did the Mad King have time to bang his sister-wife and produce Dany? I thought he got kidnapped and after he was sent back, he went even more mad and stayed in his keep for years and wanted to see nobody. I just don't see him wanting some passionate love like that in the middle of all the turmoil. Perhaps Dany being storm born could be related to being born in the storm of the rebellion. Perhaps she is not the Mad King's daughter; perhaps she is someone else's daughter. Maybe she is Rhaegar's daughter. That would explain the false memories that she has.

I missed one thing – who's baby did Ashara allegedly give birth to in the fake story about the stillborn baby girl? Ned's?

I think Martin has deliberately led them to go with the popular theory on the show. This has always made the most sense, even though you've gone in to it far deeper than I have always thought it being Ashara + Ned. R+l=J was always too obvious but never made actual sense in the books to me.