In hew new book, author and attorney Sally Frazer digs into Daenerys Targaryen’s heel turn, and draws parallels between her and another polarizing figure.
Many Game of Thrones fans took issue with the eighth and final season of the show, particularly the ending where Daenerys Targaryen (Emilia Clarke) took a major heel turn, burning down King’s Landing and later dying at the hands of Jon Snow.
But there are lots of ways to look at this development. In her new book, Fire & Blood, Fire & Fury: Daenerys Targaryen, Donald Trump, and the American Public’s Enduring Susceptibility to Authoritarian Figures, author and attorney Sally Frazer argues that not only was Daenerys’ villainous turn well established early in the show’s run, but that there’s a terrifying parallel between her supporters and those of current United States President Donald Trump.
That’s a pretty novel way to look at things and naturally generated some discussion among fans. We were curious, so we reached out to Frazer to learn more about the details. She gave us her thoughts on the book, the show itself, and the current state of American politics. Enjoy!
Where did the inspiration for the book come from?
It initially stemmed from my exasperation with Dany’s fans. I followed viewers’ reactions throughout season eight, and I was bewildered by the backlash. I certainly had complaints of my own, but there was one common argument that I found utterly absurd: the persistent claim that Dany’s tyranny had been condensed into two episodes. That her dark turn was an assassination of her character, that it was all for shock value, that “foreshadowing is not character development.” Entire articles were written about the misogyny and the injustice and the baselessness of her trajectory. It was incessant, and I found myself ranting internally every time I encountered it. I finally started writing my frustrations out, and it just got longer and longer. So this started as a personal rant solely to make myself feel better about the madness- pun intended- that erupted in the aftermath of season eight.
As a first-time author, what made you want to tackle this subject?
After Daenerys burned down King’s Landing, a plethora of articles emerged identifying all the warning signs, all the times viewers should have seen this ending coming. But these lists of her questionable acts were just that: lists. They didn’t explain why these behaviors meant that she was a tyrant, what made them different from the conduct of every other character on the show. They didn’t explore the progression of her rhetoric, the due process implications of her indiscriminate executions, the meaning of the carefully placed dialogue surrounding her story. If people didn’t know what the warning signs of authoritarianism were, these lists were mere recitations of her violent words and acts. I wanted a more in-depth breakdown of her progression, and I didn’t see anyone else writing the particular analysis I had in mind.
How did you first find Game of Thrones? What were your overall thoughts on the show as it ended?
I came to this fandom late in the game. I knew very little about the series, and, being the naïve summer child that I was, I initially believed that the books would be finished before the show concluded. I wanted to read the entire A Song of Ice and Fire series before starting the show. I had a group of friends who would watch the new episodes together each week, and I wandered in one night and found myself intrigued.
Because the scene I walked in on was the Purple Wedding. Seriously. The first scene of Game of Thrones I ever saw was Joffrey’s death. I had never seen people lose their minds over a TV show like that before. I had no idea what was going on- only that this kid who seemed like a total jerk had been murdered- and I’d never seen people so excited to see a character killed off. (I get it now.)
That scene got me curious enough to stop waiting around for the books and finally take the plunge. I binge-watched the first four seasons, and I was hooked. I’m not sure I’d call myself a superfan; I didn’t write this book out of some obsession that I have with Game of Thrones. I just found the subject interesting and wanted to share the idea with other viewers. It kept me occupied during quarantine.
Season eight was rushed, sloppy, and poorly written. It never should have been attempted in six episodes. Fans’ frustrations are unquestionably justified in that regard. Even worse, “The Bells” made Dany’s transformation seem utterly inexplicable. Even I, as someone who had seen this coming from six seasons away, couldn’t piece together what was supposed to have set her off in that moment. I get why her fans are upset. I argue only that this ending is what was always going to happen and, more importantly, that it’s what should have happened. But the way that it was done left much to be desired, and that’s understandably painful for the people who loved her. She deserved better. They all did.
That being said, I liked season eight. For what it was, it was still quality TV. While a lot of the criticism was entirely justified, I think that a lot of it wasn’t– Jaime’s trajectory, for instance, and the lighting of episode three. Daenerys’ fate has always been the biggest and most consistent complaint among viewers, though, and it’s the one I find the most bizarre and least subjective.
My biggest fear in season eight was that Daenerys would come out on top. It would have served as an endorsement of her brutality and tyrannical style of leadership throughout the series. It would have reinforced the idea that “the ends justify the means.” Dany’s fans wanted her to be queen “no matter the cost,” and the cost of Dany’s reign was the freedom of the people she sought to rule. They were so determined to make her queen so that she could free everybody that they were willing to subjugate everybody to make her queen. I truly believe that Dany’s fate- inadequate as its execution may have been- was a necessary conclusion to her story.
Image: Game of Thrones/HBO
Did you still enjoy the show after watching it for research?
I’ve re-watched the entire thing four or five times over the past year; I’m actually finishing up season seven again with one of my sisters. This is her first time watching the show. That part never gets old- watching it with new people. She knew absolutely nothing about Game of Thrones going into it. That’s where it stays fun- watching people react to Ned’s death, to the Red and Purple Weddings, to Cersei blowing up the Sept. She’s just about to learn about Jon’s parents, so I’m pretty psyched to see how she responds. I don’t think I could watch it by myself again for a while, but I’ll never get bored of watching it with first-time viewers. I’d love to go back and re-read the books when I have the time.
Was there a specific moment when the connection between Trump and Daenerys clicked?
The first similarities I noticed were between a subset of Dany and Trump’s supporters. That’s where this analysis really started. The parallels emerged in the social media comments, particularly in the way people defended Daenerys in the aftermath of season eight. This didn’t start with her demise, of course; there are a plethora of documented exchanges from five, six, seven years ago of vigilant viewers pointing out the red flags in her storyline and Dany’s supporters dismissively (or, often, belligerently) ignoring them. Millions of people tried to warn them of what she was, and they did not listen. They turned a blind eye to every problematic thing she did. They made the exact same deflections, justifications, excuses, and attacks on critics that Trump’s supporters have made in his defense. It was all so familiar. I was watching the same phenomenon occur in two very different spheres of life, and I found it both fascinating and frightening.
As I say in the book, this analysis by no means applies to all fans of Dany or supporters of Trump. But there is an extreme faction in both groups that is fanatical and cult-like, and that’s what the book is about. From there, it all just kind of fell together. The more I looked at the parallels between these figures’ supporters, the more I began to notice the similarities between Dany and Trump themselves. That’s why I kept up with it. It felt like the book was writing itself, like I was just discovering these insane parallels that were too uncanny and exact to ignore. Their words, their actions- they were two sides of the same coin.
I’m ashamed to admit how long it took me to piece together the “fire and blood,” “fire and fury” parallel. “Break the wheel” and “drain the swamp” are fascinating indicators of Dany and Trump’s populism. The one that’s the most fun to me is “Dracarys” and “You’re fired!” When Daenerys dismisses Varys from her service, she’s literally saying, “You’re fired!” I got a real kick out of that.
Image: Game of Thrones/HBO
Having seen the show and read the books, do you feel like Martin does a better job of telegraphing Dany’s turn?
This is just my opinion, but I think that the show substitutes an explicit emphasis on due process for Dany’s internal paranoia in the books.
In the books, we can see Dany’s paranoia taking root. It’s perfectly understandable; an ominous warning of three betrayals is enough to drive anyone crazy. But this constant fear and distrust is what ultimately led to her father’s deterioration after the Defiance of Duskendale, and I think it’s something to watch out for in the next two books.
This paranoia is internal; Daenerys doesn’t tell people about her experience in the House of the Undying, and she doesn’t openly question the loyalty of those around her. It’s always in her mind, this constant nagging, wondering when she’ll be betrayed and who will turn on her. It would be hard to convey those internal monologues in a TV show, so I believe that the showrunners went with a more blaring, unambiguous route: her disregard for due process.
I talk about this a lot in my book, because I think it’s a compelling point. There are several scenes in Dany’s TV storyline that do not take place in the books. They occur within the timeline of the books, but they’re additions of the show’s creators. More importantly, there’s a distinct pattern to them: Dany’s indiscriminate approach to crime and punishment. I believe this is deliberate and that it’s meant to warn viewers of Dany’s underlying tyranny and the danger it poses. It’s easy to dismiss criticism of these acts as defense of slavery and sympathizing with oppressors. But these scenes establish a pattern of indiscriminate torture and murder, and they showcase Dany’s indifference to establishing the guilt or innocence of those she kills. This is problematic, because arbitrary punishment puts everyone at risk. If she can kill people at random, no one is safe. A disregard for due process is a major red flag of authoritarianism. It has been a prominent feature of Trump’s presidency, as well.
So, to answer your question, I actually find TV Dany to be less ambiguous. Her tyranny was clearly outlined over the span of all eight seasons. It’s my personal opinion that this is a deliberate demonstration in hero worship and how easily people can fall for the allure of autocratic figures. Dany’s progression into ruthless dictator is subtle and somewhat ambiguous, because that’s realistic. Authoritarians don’t announce themselves as malevolent leaders. Despotic rulers- like Trump- often rise to power not through violence or military force, but with the backing of their citizens. Daenerys is meant to be charming, enticing, and exciting. Her goals, motivations, and emotions are all relatable. Her mission is one that no one could possibly oppose. I think that’s the point; resisting tyranny requires being able to look past the grandiose promises autocratic leaders make and recognize the underlying erosions of freedom their despotic behaviors facilitate. Daenerys speaks of liberation, but she herself says that freedom cannot exist without justice. She consistently perpetrates injustice, and for that reason, despite her avowed dedication to the cause of liberty, she never could have truly represented freedom.
What do you believe was Dany’s first warning sign, the first red flag?
This is a difficult one, because we see it spring up occasionally in season one, but not in a way that’s definitive or wholly irredeemable.
One example is when Dany threatens to cut off Viserys’ hands. We might think that Viserys deserves to lose his hands, and it might be nice to see Dany standing up for herself, but this line illustrates how she has already become desensitized to extreme violence. She later drags a man to death behind her horse. Again, we might think that this punishment for the attempt on her life is warranted, but Dany’s callous indifference to the suffering of her enemies is a concerning indicator of who she will eventually become. She’s grown up with Viserys and the Dothraki, so it’s only natural that this kind of violence has become normal to her.
The burning of Mirri Maz Duur is another example. This killing is particularly interesting, because the horror of death by fire is such a recurring theme throughout the series; the notorious brutality of Lord Rickard Stark’s death by wildfire, Davos’ unease at Melisandre’s pyres, Jon’s refusal to watch Mance Rayder burn alive—they all tell us the same thing: death by fire is a “bad way to go.” While this killing disgusted and concerned me, I withheld judgment and waited to see what Dany would do next.
I think the first unmistakable red flag occurs in season two, when Dany threatens the Thirteen outside the walls of Qarth: “When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me. We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground. Turn us away, and we will burn you first.” A lot of people dismissed these words as passion, desperation, or girl power, but this isn’t normal, even for Game of Thrones. The only other character who repeatedly talks about burning cities to the ground is Cersei.
Daenerys didn’t say this once, in the heat of the moment. She made this threat repeatedly, over the span of the entire series, with the utmost conviction and sincerity. When she promised to destroy cities and lay waste to armies, when she called for the obliteration of entire social classes and expressed her indifference to the guilt or innocence of those she oppressed, the Dragon Queen was explicitly telling us who she was and what she was capable of. Dany’s rhetoric throughout the series was one of the biggest red flags of her authoritarianism. She consistently told us what she wanted to do, and, like Trump, she repeatedly had to be talked out of acting on the worst of her impulses.
What has the overall response to the book been thus far?
Almost entirely negative. I unwittingly promoted my book in a realm of Twitter that is adamantly pro-Daenerys. I poked the very dragons my book is critical of. I’ve been called a racist, a lover of rape and slavery, a clout-seeking narcissist. They’ve called on George R.R. Martin to sue me. They’ve started leaving negative reviews while avowing that they’ll never actually read the book. In doing so, they’re quite literally proving the book’s premise. They don’t see the irony in that.
I know that seems like a bit of a catch-22: buy my book or I’m right! But that’s not it at all. The whole point of the book is that a fanatical subset of Dany’s fandom is unconditionally devoted to her and blind to her despotism. These fans refuse to even consider the evidence against her. They are incapable of recognizing or acknowledging her flaws and mistakes. They make arguments that are illogical or factually inaccurate. They attack her critics. They are so convinced of her righteousness that nothing will sway their opinions, not even confirmation of her flaws from the Dragon Queen herself.
Case in point, many of Dany’s most loyal fans mercilessly attack anyone who criticizes the crucifixion of the masters. But Emilia Clarke herself has said that Dany’s judgment in that scene was clouded and that it was “not what a good leader would do.” Her supporters denounce anyone who condemns this act as a slavery-loving bigot without realizing that their queen is one of those critics.
This fanatical subset of Dany’s base would rather believe that anyone who criticizes her loves slavery, hates women, or is downright stupid (even though we’re the ones who accurately predicted this ending) than consider the possibility that there’s a valid reason so many people opposed this beautiful, powerful, slavery-abolishing badass; that perhaps there was something there that they couldn’t see. It’s tempting to dismiss Dany’s trajectory as “bad writing” when you missed all the signs that she was a mass murdering tyrant the whole time, particularly after you’ve gone and named your kid Khaleesi.
It’s much like Trump supporters and the Ukraine transcript. The President’s most ardent loyalists were convinced that Trump’s impeachment was a big nothing-burger, so much so that they never even bothered to look at the evidence against him. They shut out anything that reflected negatively on Trump and closed their minds to the possibility that maybe he really had done something wrong.
No one has to read my book. But to criticize or dismiss it as baseless without even entertaining the possibility that it has merit just reinforces my point. These are just my opinions. I’ve never claimed to be all-knowing or right; I say so in the book. I have no association with George R.R. Martin, D&D, or HBO. I’m not an expert on Game of Thrones or authoritarianism. This is simply my interpretation of the show, and people are welcome to disagree.
Still, I believe in the premise of this book. My arguments aren’t baseless, and the parallels I’ve made aren’t stretches. There are distinct similarities between Daenerys, Trump, and their bases. I find the whole thing quite compelling, and I hope others will, too.
Image: Game of Thrones/HBO
Whether you agree with her perspective or not, Frazer clearly knows her Thrones, from the Defiance of Duskendale on down. What do you think of her arguments?
We thank Frazer for the time, and wish her good fortune in the wars to come. You can check out her book here.
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