Why Wondery Thinks The Next Game Of Thrones Will Come On Audio Through Podcasts

“Serial was one of those shows where people figured out how to listen to a podcast because they wanted to listen to Serial.” That’s according to Jen Sargent, Chief Operating Officer of Wondery, one of the world’s leading podcast content creators and someone who knows a thing or two about serialized storytelling with hit podcasts like Dr Death. I sat down with Jen to discuss the world of podcasting and how the business of content creation is changing.

Dave Knox: Podcasting has been around since the mid-2000’s but have had a resurgence the past few years. Where do you see the category going?

Sargent: When podcasts first appeared, the amount of content was limited and discovery was really tough so most consumers hadn’t figured out how to access podcasts. Fast-forward to 2014 and what was really a pivotal moment in podcasting’s history. Apple podcasts pre-installed their podcast app on iOS devices and shortly thereafter Serial really became the first breakthrough serialized podcast to come on the scene. And Serial was one of those shows where people figured out how to listen to a podcast because they wanted to listen to Serial.  And that was a moment for podcasting that really set it up for some of the things that we’re experiencing and enjoying today.

If you’re a TV fan, you may remember what happened after the Sopranos. Well, all of a sudden these epic stories like Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones arose. Wondery’s founder had this theory that the same thing could happen in podcasts. He set out to create a company to make that happen, to create serialized content that was immersive, that was character-driven, that really brought the audience into the story with characters that they cared about so much so that they couldn’t wait to binge the content.

Audio is a really an amazing place for serialized storytelling. We’re all getting busier and busier. And our ability to consume media is more and more limited and it’s getting more and more competitive. And so, what podcasting offers is a way to multitask. You can be in your car, you can be exercising, you can be walking your dog, you can be cooking dinner and you can be enjoying a podcast. And that is something that absolutely fits into today’s consumer world and consumer behaviors. And so I think we’re seeing accelerated adoption because the use case is just so clear. We all have a phone in our hands with easy accessibility to these podcasts. You don’t have to create special time in your day to sit down on the couch to listen or to even sit down and read a book. You can do this while you’re doing some other part of your day.

The other bigger trend that’s happening in society that’s really helping podcast gain foothold is this idea of connection. We’re all constantly glued to our phones and glued to technology, but more and more consumers are having to be very deliberate to feel connected within their community, within their friend groups, within their family. We’re living in this ADD world that pulls us in a lot of different directions. And what can easily happen out of that is this feeling of being disconnected and not part of anything. The nature of podcasts, because it’s such a personalized experience it’s right in your ear, people feel connected to the host, they feel connected to the stories, they feel connected to the characters. And it creates a sense of belonging and community that I think other forms of media don’t necessarily create in the same way.

Knox: So I want to dive in more on that comparison you made to HBO and TV and this emergence of serialized content. The interesting thing with HBO was it broke the advertising model because brands couldn’t advertise on HBO. How do you think about the role of brand marketers in podcasting?

Sargent: When it comes to brands I think there’s a tremendous opportunity, particularly around the idea of connection. Advertisers have responded extremely well to podcasts in our shows in particular, and we’re seeing the pool of advertisers grow dramatically as more and more of them are testing the medium and seeing success. But I think part of what makes podcast so unique as a medium and platform is the fact that most people who listen to podcasts feel that personal connection with the host.

And when they feel that personal connection, it’s almost as if a friend of theirs is recommending that product. And that’s hard to replicate. If you think about the kind of personal endorsement that comes when a friend of yours says, “Listen to this, buy this, do this.” And that’s the connection our hosts and in general podcast hosts have with consumers.

And unlike HBO, which kind of shut out brands, podcasts are actually very much including brands. And I think the brands who have discovered podcast advertising as a channel have just been cleaning up in terms of very affordable rates, great performance, and creating a deeper connection with their future customers.

Knox: On that note, Wondery has partnered with brands like NBC News, Universal Music Group and even The Athletic. What really drove the need and opportunity behind them?

Sargent: This year we had eight of the top 20 biggest shows of 2019. And every time somebody gets immersed in a Wondery show, they can’t put it down. But we’re only in a certain number of categories and we know that there are certain things that we do really well and others where we need to rely on partners to bring in expertise. And that’s exactly what happened in the case those deals.

So for example, Universal Music Group. We had long thought that there was a huge untapped opportunity in combining music and podcasts. And there’s a number of reasons why there wasn’t enough popular music dedicated to podcast and at the same time there weren’t enough podcast dedicated to music. And part of that is it’s expensive to license music, but part of that is it’s extremely complicated and there wasn’t a clear path for licensing music and podcasts.

And I think UMG, who’s the largest label in the world, saw that opportunity as well. So they approached us with the goal of including their music in our shows. And we will be creating mini-series with them around music and musical acts that will be released later this year. So that one was specifically to fill a gap that I think we both saw in the space.

When it comes to NBC news, that was one where we didn’t want to ignore the fact that news and commentary is a big part of consumers’ interest in terms of listening.  It would be hard to rival newsrooms and multichannel reach. So, when we got into conversations with NBC about partnering, especially going into an election year where quality, trusted news would just be extremely important. We wanted to make sure that we had a solid partner in that category.

And then with The Athletic, this again was thinking about how do we go broad, how do we create more content that more and more people want to listen to? Sports is one of the largest categories in podcasts listening and in radio listening. And a lot of the shows that existed before us covered different aspects of sports, but we saw a real gap in the market to create a daily sports news show and that was not all about opinion and soundbites.

And we wanted to create a news and storytelling show and a show that goes a bit deeper into each story. Almost the way the New York Times Daily really digs into one story a day. We knew that if we tried to launch a sports show without a partner, we really were going into unchartered territory in a category where we don’t have a lot of necessarily credibility and previous experience.

So, we partnered with The Athletic because they are a premium brand in sports because they have a several hundred person newsroom of local beat reporters who cover these teams and are really on the ground getting the stories and connected with the teams and the players and the fans and partnering with them to get this kind of access and get so close to the story and cover the story from the sidelines versus the press box. That was really important to us.

Knox: Many of your shows have been optioned or in development for TV shows. What do you think about this trend of podcasts being the new source of scripts in the world of Hollywood?

Sargent: I think we’re going to see more of it as an industry. Wondery has about nine shows in active development, all are either optioned or ordered to series across multiple networks and platforms and production houses. It’s been announced that Dr. Death, which was the number one podcast of 2018 has been picked up by NBC’s Peacock service and that will premiere this fall starring Alec Baldwin, Christian Slater and Jamie Dornan and we’re really thrilled about that. 

We care about the stories that people care about.

The secret is really this emotionally immersive and character-driven stories. We care about the stories that people care about. Every single show we really work hard to put the listeners in the middle of the story as it happens. And every single story is really designed to grab listener attention and compel them to listen minute by minute, episode by episode, which means these stories absolutely lend themselves to getting developed into other platforms like TV. Much like how books turn into movies. And what’s great for the TV industry is we can find a hit in podcasting, build an audience and then have this relatively low cost compared to a TV show proof of concept so that when a TV network goes to source the story from podcasting, they already know they have a hit on their hands, they already know that they’ve de-risked this quite bit. So, it makes sense for the TV industry to look to podcasting as a source of IP.  A good story is a good story.

Knox: What do you see the future of podcast when it comes to the business world as a whole?

Sargent: Podcasts have the ability to become as ubiquitous as radio. And with that, we’re going to see a number of different revenue models and opportunities evolving. Advertising will still be a great opportunity for podcasters to monetize, with baked-in spots, hosts read spots, branded content, and programmatic spots. But what I think we’re going to see emerge alongside that is the opportunity to put the power in the consumer’s hands and have subscription models around the content, whether it’s a la carte, by episode or by series or season. It could be subscription models like what we see with Netflix and Hulu. It could be other business models like micro-currency, allowing consumers to support the hosts and the shows that they’re fans of.

And finally, this idea of developing the IP into other things. There’s an opportunity for podcasts to get turned into books. Podcasts to get turned into events. And there’s an opportunity to do more on the merchandising side of things.

All of these advanced revenue models are emerging. It’s going to put a serious dent in radio because just the way consumers have become trained to get their television content on demand from services like Netflix and Hulu, they’re getting trained to get their audio content on demand and have the control to listen to exactly what they want when they want.