Why the Arya versus Sansa Winterfell storyline failed in Game of Thrones Season 7.

My previous video on “Why the nonsensical Arya chase in Braavos happened:

Alan Taylor interview:

Cited reviews and critics:

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49 COMMENTS

  2. 3 more examples of bad writting relating to the North in this season.*

    1. After Arya kills Freys only random Lannister aptrol (what are they doing that far north anyway?) and Cersei make oblique reference to it. Nobody in the North seems to care that instigators of Red Wedding were wiped out, that there is no clear idea who will take over. Granted, they are Vale family but still….

    2. Rickon. Remember him? If you do then you are better than whole Stark family. Arya doesn't ask about him even though she hasn't seen him for years.

    3. the trial. Gods (Old & New) that was so bad….. video touched a bit on it but there are additioanl points:
    -Sansa swore singer killed lysa, not LF. And some of the lords she swore in front of were in the hall. All LF had to do was say "Why do you lie, mylady? You swore singer killed your aunt, now you are swearing I did it. One is a false oath. If you are willing to do that how can you expect people to trust you?" It doesn't matter which is a lie, one is and that makes Sansa's word weak.
    -Knife. Again, all LF had to say was "Oh yes, I had that knife but it was stolen/I lost it years ago."
    -Bran's vision. "Oh dear boy, how could you have seen me place it on your father's throat when you were here? You had a vision and tree told you that? I fear your mind is weaking due to hardships you suffered in past few years."

    anybody with two brain cells could have defended himself properly. And LF had more than two working brain cells…..

    Not to mention that Sansa acted as both the judge and a witness. Combine all that and the trial would be a farse even by westerosi standards. Once LF defends himself like that Sansa has two options, kill him anyway and turn into Mad Queen or let him go. But entire thing was done for shock with little regard for anything else.

    *There are other examples from Euron moving fleet all over the palce, Lannsiters taking Highgarden practically unopposed within coupe of days, Rhaegar/Lyanna wedding etc. But that's another matter

  6. Season 7 is proof positive that D&D are each writing pieces of an episode and not comparing notes. Dany says she needs the food from the Reach, 10 min later, burns up the food wagons. They claim Rhaegar could have annulled his marriage, which actually means…Season 4 didn't need to happen because Elia and her bastardized children wouldn't have been butchered.

  9. In short, portraying tension and conflict between Sansa/Sophie and Arya/Maisie is pointless and self-defeating because the actors themselves are so darned close and BFFs! 🙂 #MophieIsReal
    But I actually think that both Sansa and Arya decided to work in concert to snare Littlefinger into their trap at the end. The three Starks in the godswood silently agreed to avenge their father and take down Littlefinger.

  10. GoT is using soap opera techniques too often: showing shots of faces of people looking scared/shocked/angry/sad without saying anything and with dramatic light/music. It does nothing for the story, just adds, as you correctly said, artificial tension

  11. But of course, the Vale lords weren't willing to support Littlefinger, because he's an unlikable jackass in the show. Maybe if he'd been a bit more charismatic, he could've had their support. You really start to see why book Littlefinger is a lot better at the game than his show counterpart.

  12. How did Arya, perhaps a good assassin but who would be an amateur fighter, beat the more experienced Brienne of Tarth? Of course. Maisie Williams is a dancer.

    Also, looking at Arya at this point in a character arc, she would never threaten to kill anyone, even her sister. The guards would just find the body somewhere.

    Have a lot to say about the Winterfell storyline (can we call it that?). However, I am anxious to see your dissertation on North of the Wall, as this had more far-reaching problems.

    More on this in a bit. However . . .

    The only interview I saw was the one where D&D were going on about how cool it would be to have an undead polar bear, and that HBO never would let them have an undead polar bear. Am I being too cynical, that I would suspect D&D would do that whole ludicrous storyline, just so Thoros would be killed by – guess what! – an undead polar bear.

    OK – just as a disclaimer, even though this show is far past the source material (although they've supposedly been told the source material at this point. I am a writer. I understand the nature of adaption. I understand that rote adoption of source material has really only worked with the Bogart version of Maltese Falcon and should really be avoided. My assertion is that, without Martin standing over their shoulders (I hear that he doesn't even watch anymore), D&D have shown their ineptitude to a major degree this Season – even where it comes to ADAPTION. The constant apologies that someone doesn't understand the pressures of the writing room or of adapting a large project are indeed, as you say, bullshit – in the sense that any Professional understands that these are not valid excuses. To employ an overused platitude, "If you can't stand the heat . . . "

    The reason many of us were happy when A Song of Ice and Fire came along was that it subverted tropes which had become more than annoying in both film and literature (i.e. Deus ex Machina, Plot Armour, people finding out at the last minute that this evil guy over here has been manipulating them and thus being able to put things to rights before it is too late, etc). It is possible that the reason people are starting to notice the bad writing this Season is that the ENTIRE SEASON relied SOLELY on these very same clichés. In Martin's Westeros, actions have consequences. In Benioff and Weiss's post-Martin Westeros, actions MIGHT have consequences – if you are not a leading character.

    When Bronn and Jaime emerged from that river after the battle against Dani – practically unscathed – this was the final clue to even the most casual show-watchers. We are now in a mainstream TV show – with all the bad clichés which come with it.

    When a variation of this (obviously an attempt at thematic callback, as this appears to be the only plot/story device D&D want to even try understanding on their own), occurs with Jon while North of the Wall, this is the moment the show officially jumps the shark.

    BUT I needed to write about Above the Wall.

    As dumb as elements of the Winterfell storyline were, at least there were things which could make some kind of illusion of making sense.

    The Above the Wall storyline, however, had little discernable story reason to even exist, outside of the aforementioned Polar Bear, or – perhaps – to give the Others a dragon. Plus, look at what they had to do to even make it work. In the end, I am with the CaroofChaeronea comment. I have reaction videos for this Season, which I can't even edit – because I would rather sit through Dorne on a loop than sit through a moment of the Season 7 train wreck again. During Seasons 5 and 6, I could at least say that even a bad episode of GoT is still the best thing on television. Season 7, on the other hand, was unforgiveable.

    My most glaring example: Why was Tyrion such an idiot this Season? Could it be so that the plan to bring down a wight – to show CERSEI ! ! ! – would actually seem intelligent by comparison? One would think, Tyrion would know and be able to predict HIS OWN SISTER better than anyone. What is his contingency for when she decides to pretend to help them while stabbing them in the back (the most typical Cersei behavior)? Of course, D&D wouldn't know, because they only write what they want the actors to play and not from the characters' inner thoughts. Tyrion the character would count on a betrayal from Cersei and have something planned, as LF would if in the same situation.

    Thus, the ineptitude of Beyond the Wall intrudes on what could essentially be another storyline.

    Before I end – an aside to your previous video. It sells Book LF a little short to compare him to Palpatine, except in the case of what Lucas probably planned for the SW prequels. LF is dear old "Honest Iago." In other words, Martin wrote a variation on perhaps the meatiest of Shakespearean villains – a role into which any actor could pour out all his talents, and Benioff and Weiss decided to write a cartoon villain because they wanted to watch Gillen, who would've had a role to be proud of, mug for the camera.

    I apologize before posting for the stream of consciousness writing.

  13. As understandable as it was for Sansa to want to punish the Umbers and the Karstarks, she did however step out of line when she questioned Jon in front of the Northern lords–that did undermine him. If she did it in private, that would've been totally understandable. Jorah Mormont and Barristan Selmy did a similar thing to Daenerys in Season 3 to which she says: "You're both here to advise me and I value your advice, but if you ever question me in front of strangers again, you will be advising someone else."

  14. My gut reaction when I saw the scene was that Arya was handing the dagger to Sansa as an olive branch and gesture of trust. She started that scene with mentioning the Game of Faces and basically stated that she was going to lie to her convincingly. She then went on about how easily she could kill her and take her place (the lie). Finally she handed over the dagger and deliberately turned her back (the real message). All of that combined, it seemed to be a very blatant lesson that Arya could be an extremely dangerous threat but that she was consciously choosing to trust Sansa. I freely admit that the scene as I interpreted it would make a lot more sense if there was someone spying on them.

    Of course, this still leaves the problem of their fight being real up to this point. This is problematic as neither of them should have fallen for Littlefinger's machinations after all they've been through. Any way you look at it, the writing and/or editing left much to be desired.

  15. The way I wanted to see the little finger death to play out was like this. DEATH NOTE SPOILERS. In the finale to death note light is cornered by his rival and caught in a trap, light then spends the entire episode finding every possible way to escape. From manipulating the friends he betrayed or trying to hurt near's credibility so his people will turn on him to help light. This is very similar to how little finger is cornered. But now the smartest character in GoT is completely obvious to the fact he is surrounded by enemy's and has no plan other than to beg for his life, beg the two emotionless crazy girls who hate him.

  16. Who actually puts these idiot writers in charge? I think Isaac Hempstead-Wright's description of Bran as 'a huge CCTV department' suggests to me that he is not particularly impressed with how his character turned out.

  21. I will say the Brienne scene only makes sense if you believe D&D considered either of those options. I don't think they had any plan at all. They just wanted a dramatic moment where Littlefinger is killed in front of the Stark sisters, and dramatic scenes of Sophie and Maisie playing off each other.
    I think we have to wait until the commentary but I think the only thing which was in their mind was how to make these scenes "exciting". I don't believe they have any intention of having scenes make sense, they just want to keep their reputation of being shocking afloat.

  22. Can we also talk about Jaime ? How come only at the end of this season he leaves Cersei ? In the books he was finished with her way before they decided to bring a fucking wight to accomplish absolutely fucking nothing of – Oh wait , now I get it again . They did that so the cast can emote how they're terrifed of the White Walker threat even though the Night's Watch ALREADY sent Ser Alliser Thorne with the hand of a WIGHT as proof but Joffrey and the lot dissmised it – Even though you could say that a hand doesn't prove much ( which it doesn't ) but neither did bringing the wight accomplish anything . Cersei acted the way she would act – she'd lie an swindle and the rest of 'em actually believed 'er . And after she confesses her plan Jaime then leaves her ? What the fuck , after all the shit she put him through , the way she treated him immediately after he came maimed . No the Jaime , the book Jaime doesn't give an ounce of deep fried shit for her at this point . Altough Coster – Waldau is one fine actor , the character in the show is way over-commited about a relationship already dead .

  23. My prediction for Season 8:

    It will be seven hours of the actors being dressed up and making faces for the camera without any dialogue whatsoever. Possibly with a few random White Walker fight scenes thrown in the mix.

    …heck, that would almost be avant-garde. XD

  25. I agree with your analogy that Sansa is the Ralph of the story.  D&D have been trying to make viewers love Sansa without her earning that love or loyalty.  Telling the smith to add leather to the armor was a joke on simple minded viewer.  Sansa needs help.  Always has.

  27. The funniest part is you can actually make legendary and meaningful scenes without dialogue. Even when they're different kind of media, Evangelion comes to mind while writing this. The main difference is Evangelion had great directing and actually knew about the story they wanted to make, and GOT well… dragons, I guess?

  28. My general feeling of season 7 is that while it was retarded in a lot of spots it wasnt boring like season 6 or unwatchablely aweful like season 5. I think it was a lot of fun and I wasnt bored and looked forward to the next episode. This was the signal worst part of season 7 though. I guess my view is that season 7 was good tv just not good games of thrones. Dont get me wrong it was really dumb but the actors felt like they were enjoying it more than they had for awhile

  29. I just can't believe this is what ended up happening.

    Who actually talks about their favorite show and discusses anything other than the amazing plot points or character arcs? Who really just sits down and talks about the way an actor emotes makes or breaks a show?

    How did this really happen?

  31. I feel so bad for Sophie and Maisie, because next time they make an appearance at a con or an interview or a q&a, they're going to be hounded with the backlash about this nonsensical plot which they had nothing to do with and have no idea why it happened. Because D & D aren't going to take responsibility as shown by their actions in the past in situations like this.

  32. Very good Video! Since I watch your Videos my love for the show has dropped trastically! I also showed your videos to other people so that they might overthink the whole plot and desicions and stop making some stupid theories only to make the story "good" again…
    I think, D&D wanted sansa and arya to fight for real, maybe because Sansa is jealous of Jon (for some stupid reason, I guess becaus tension!), but Arya hopes midway through that her sister will overthink her actions (in the scene where Arya hands Sansa the dagger over, maybe she wants to signalise here that Arya doesn't want to kill her and points indirectly to Littlefinger, to whom the dagger belongs…) But this is just so stupid…it really makes my head hurt xD But one of your scenarios – even though still stupid – is possibly true…I just hate what D&D are doing to this Show…

    One thing I still can't forget is the Jon-storyline where he and other fan-favourites try and get this fu** White and of course only one survives when they kill the "master", and of course when they run in the middle of the lake, the army of the dead doesn't attack and just stand there…yeah right, because they wait for the dragons…and in the end Jon almost dies twice, but we can't let our hero die, right? We just did it, because it was soooo exciting…not -_-
    I'm sorry, but most of the decisions this season were just bad! I loved the Show, now not so much anymore…really sad how the Producers screw things up so bad. 🙁

    But your Videos are on point :3 You have my Support 😛

  34. I think its clear the friction between Sansa and Arya is a plothole. If it was supposed to be fake friction then like you said it makes no sense the Arya threathens Sansa in private, if it was supposed to be real friction regardless of the scenes, it doesn't make any sense for both Sansa and Arya the characters. Both are supposed to love their family and the letter Cersei made Sansa write and their old sister friction of Sansa is girly and Arya boyish does not come close to a valid reason. In my opinion you can't make a story about an honest loyal family and then without a clear valid reason have them almost kill eachother.
    I do think the show is gradually becomming worse but maby its because i haven't read the books. From season 6 on it becomes clear to me I'm watching a different show..
    And one more thing besides "The reconceived the role…" excuse. I feel they are just straight up pandering to their huge fanbase which like with every really popular show consists of people not really that invested in the story lines but more in seeing dragons and zombies and hugh battles.

  35. I'm sorry but isn't it the Actor's job to understand their character well enough to display what the character is feeling? Them and the director. I realize that the 'expected' emotions or reactions are also written into the script but a good director gets what is needed from the actors and the action to make the scene , if their not 'feeling' what's written they USUALLY win the debate! DeMille, Spielberg, Lucas, Lee, Tarantino, Scorsa…etc… These men are 'household' names for a reason! It seems your upset that TV show isn't ECHOING the books word for word & page for page… how boring would that be and it's a VISUAL medium why the hell would they not take advantage of that…. perhaps I'm missing the point you are trying to make.

  37. Without a doubt, the show is a sad, sorry, mess. Life is short and time precious. so I kick myself, after watching an episode, to make sure I'm aware I've yet again wasted a substantial amount of time doing nothing productive, or positive. Unless one counts shouting abuses at the TV, as therapeutic; And I don't. (No, I don't really kick myself!)
    So, thank God for your video "rants!" You've shone light, into what would have otherwise remained some very murky and unexplained story lines. (If one can call them that).
    Thank You!! <3
    Nonetheless there are those out there, determined to swear they understand and love, every twist and turn, that comes along. Not realizing, that the twists and turns, are infact, poor production, bad editing, horrible writing, etc….!
    PS..Whenever I happen upon some poor confused GoT apologist, I send them along to your site!! Although sadly, these individuals seem to possess cult like determination to hang onto their convictions!
    Ah well……we can all but try!!
    THANKS AGAIN!!!!
    CHEERS!!!

  38. So Arya is actually incredibly stupid for thinking that letter (which shouldn’t even be in Winterfell) would turn the northern lords against Sansa.

    Also, Lord Royce should be executed for treason. He literally refused a lawful command from his liege lord. Ah that’s right, laws of feudal society no longer matter in the show.

  39. When 7.06 aired I defended the characters by saying, hoping, that Arya was really just playing the game of faces with Sansa – so everything she said in that 'argument' was fake. In both the books and the show Arya never wanted to wear pretty dresses and be a lady, she even says in 7.07 'I was never going to be a good a lady as you, so I had to become something else'. I really wanted to think that they were plotting together, and when I realized I was defending the writers and not the characters – because they're pretty much non-existent at this point – then I understood that it was just confusing and extremely poor writing and there was actually nothing of substance and depth there.

    I know that Arya and Sansa's plots and possible reunion in the books it will be so much better, so that's a relief. I'm still disappointed and mostly for the actors. They pour so much of themselves in these characters and they have amazing talent but it's dwindled down to essentially being robots performing commands and because of that, they aren't able to actually perform their art.

  40. Thanks Dragon Demands. I still love the GOT characters but since season 4 my anger at the sudden simplicity and my suspension of disbelief is too much. Just like gossip helps people not to be really mean to people the don´t like these videos help me to continue to watch a show that lost most of the complexity I fell in love with.
    Personally I think GOT screwed up more than Lost. Yes Lost is basically a complete waist of time given the insane amount of unanswered questions but at least they stuck to their format until the second/third to last episode and it finally became clear its just a show about cliffhangers without valid answers. Lost tried to hide this by claiming the whole show was really in the afterlife and many of us were of course dissappointed but to be fair to Lost we could have known. That black smoke monster could never really be rationally explained plus they had left so many questions open from previous seasons anything other than they were asleep or dead the whole time would be futile. And even if you disagree, the characters on Lost stayed true to their story arcs.
    I can't say the same for GOT. Arya threatning Sansa, Jon going beyond the wall with the suicide squad, Littlefinger selling Sansa to a rapist, Stannis complete lack of strategy and willingness to burn his only daughter and namesake alive, Rob chosing love over his duty/promise, Khaleeshi's time travelling, the Nightking's patiens or lack of interest in throwing a few more spears or wights and easily killing everyone and getting 3 dead dragons, etc.
    I suspect the same sadness I got from Lost I will get after season 8 and there are still just too many unanswered questions but of course I'm still in love with the show so I will reluctantly give them the benefit of the doubt.
    Sorry for my grammar and spelling, I'm Dutch so English is my second first language and I should know better.

  42. A serious question:

    Did Arya wanting to kill Sansa make so little sense? People are saying Arya wanted to kill Sansa for liking pretty dresses, but wasn't the real reason because Arya believed Sansa had a part to play in her father's death via the message LF hid under his mattress? Arya does acknowledge Sansa was young but isn't Arya supposed to be unhinged (in the show)? She's witnessed so much loss, learned morally questionable lessons from The Hound and the faceless man, and most people who once had little power, but are granted much power and have a large appetite for revenge, don't these powers get easily misused?

    And despite tv LF being more foolish than book LF, he still is LF. Should we think it impossible that he couldn't trick Sansa and Arya, two characters who have become simultaneously into roles of strength and power rather than passive on lookers and are still molten hot rather than cooled? Arya sees her sister and the same air headed girl who isn't fit to lead and should die for betraying their family, Sansa see's Arya as a fanatic of a death cult. All the while LF is fanning the flames.

    I am not arguing against the desire to shew off actors, poor writing, and inept attempts to demonstrate the sister's motivations, but are my two above paragraphs unsound?

    Edit: Shit, I can't even tell if I am trying to come up for reasons still this late for B&W even though you shewed the folly of such actions. I don't even know what is real anymore in this show! What am I supposed to make of this?!?! You are essentially giving the answer sheet, and I am still confused.

  43. The Ralph Wiggum analogy was spot-on. It's kind of hilarious how the show has placed Sansa in almost contrived scenarios to give her opportunities to become a 'player' only to completely botch the opportunity to do so in every case. She has one good scene in season 4 where she lies about Lysa's death to protect Littlefinger, and that's it.

  46. HBO should redo seasons 5, 6, and 7. They have every right to retcon cannon. It's their show; they can do whatever the hell they want with it. Hell, they can turn Tyrion into a werewolf if they want to.

  47. I do love the idea of Arya adding the Valyrian steel dagger that once belonged to Littlefinger to her arsenal. The image alone is pretty badass and it makes sense, seeing that Needle can't always kill, especially those with armor, but a Valryian steel dagger can make up for that. It's like how Sesshomaru, a badass character in his own right, added Tokijin to his arsenal, seeing that Tenseiga was a sword that could only kill the living dead like wights, meaning it was rarely unsheathed.

  48. I'm the only person who thinks it plausible that Arya could have flipped and gone psycho. After watching her family die at every turn, then brutalised and mindfucked by the faceless men to become inhuman, she then came back and literally baked the Freys into a pie. That suggests she might have gone off the deep end

  49. D&D are making the actors look good and the characters look stupid.

    I got started to thinking some characters are stupid and mentally challenged since season 5.
    Allister Thorne letting Jon through the gates.Either he falls in line or he doesn't , otherwise the character is just unstable.
    Jon as military comander. Either he is able to plan strategically or he refuses information.Either he is dump and ignorant towards information or he isn't.His refusal of Sansay inside information seems like a shit to the brain, for this character.
    Deanarys also, either she understands military strategy, like she has shown in Esteros. Or she doesn't: like she has shown in westeros.The true strengh of having 3 dragons is not force, it is reconasince.
    Ramsy losing to Jon makes no sense, either Ramsey as shown, is a superior fighter or he isn't. Ramsey as shown in the show, will not loose agaisnt an exausted Jon. No way.
    The Umbers , shown as loyal to the death in BOB and questionable loyal in previous episodes.
    Tyrrion is the biggest disapointment, it really feels as if D&D are jealous, suddenly Tyrrion lost all his abilities of playing the game.
    In season 1 he points out that he relies on reading books and gather informations, lately he forgot that information is key.
    At this point it actually would make sense to show that the oncoming winter leads to a huge decrease of brain function among westeros characters.
    Or did the writers have lost some witty support, like the books as source material???

    The point of course is, the outcomes roughly make sense. But it seems D&D are picking the characters actions by random or favour instead for story purpose and sense.

    Allister Thorne killing Jon doesn't made sense, surprise it's diffrent and make sense in the books.
    Ramsey deafeted by Jon doesn't made sense, defeated by Umber switching sides would.
    Tyrrion making bad decisions because he doesn't gather information doesn't make sense, him not getting information because he is a foreinger would.
    Deanarys loosing because of being dump doesn't make sense, her loosing because she gets surprised would.
    Her not using the dragons because being dump and afraid makes no sense, any other reason would.

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